Patricia Marin

Josh Galt (00:01.86)
Thanks for joining me, Patricia, from London. I’m really excited to talk about Sufism. That’s how I say it, right? Sufi Islam. Okay. Sufism, all right. And I guess to start with, give me a little bit of background about your journey, because that’s what’s so fascinating about this whole process is you grew up in Mexico as a Catholic, right? And then now you are in London and you converted to Sufism.

Patricia (00:12.063)
Yeah, Sufism, that’s right, yes.

Patricia (00:28.238)
Yeah.

Josh Galt (00:32.014)
Tell me a little bit about that process and what the journey has been like to where you are today.

Patricia (00:39.712)
Of course, thank you for having me, Josh. I’m really excited as well. Basically, it all started… Yeah, I was born and raised in Mexico as a Catholic, attended Catholic school. And around age nine or so, it’s when I began to question religion and my beliefs. And the reason being that I had a dream and as a child, that dream was very scary for me.

The dream involved like my soul, my soul being taken and that’s when I started to question like what does that even mean? know, what does a soul mean and all of that. So around that age, I remember reading the Bible like with much more detail. Like I was just by myself reading the Bible and I would ask some questions to the nuns at my school and things like that. But after that, one of my cousins,

they left Catholicism and her and her family joined another what you call it denomination of Christianity if I’m not mistaken exactly protestant exactly one of them I don’t know exactly which one so that helped me understand that you can actually leave your religion because as a child and in Mexico it’s like nothing you don’t think about that right so

Josh Galt (01:50.789)
evangelical church or Protestant. Okay.

Josh Galt (02:02.372)
Right.

It’s like saying you no longer like tortillas or something. It’s just that you can’t do that. You’re Mexican.

Patricia (02:10.094)
Exactly. So to me it was very interesting. So I began even questioning more and my cousin and her family and they would invite me to the temple they would go to and that’s when I began seeing of course a different perspective, right? But even then I was still not sure. I was still feeling like this is not what I feel right, you know? So…

years went by, I’m talking about I was 10, 11, 12 and even though I was not sure about Catholicism anymore, I would still pray to God, I would say, God help me, I don’t like feeling this confusion, you know, it’s just not a good feeling to be confused and not having answers, so was like, please help me understand what am I supposed to do and I remember

praying that almost every night because I was scared, I was scared of being in that confusion. So fast forward when I was 16, my parents agreed that I would go to Canada to study, to learn English. And once I arrived in Canada, that’s where it was like my prayers were answered because I received a world religion class in high school.

And I never had a war religion class, you know in Mexico they only teach Catholicism if you’re at a Catholic school. So that’s when I started to be like, whoa, like there’s more religions and to me it was fascinating. Like I remember in that class I would always do great because every chapter was a different religion. And I really, really enjoyed it. And, but more particularly when I reached Islam,

for some reason, like I remember that moment when I opened the book and it had like the picture of the Kaaba, you know, in Saudi Arabia and like it just said Islam and the five pillars of Islam and it just something like I just felt something very drawn to it. And I had no idea because I never met any Muslims before that. So I started studying it in my class and then outside of school as well. And for about

Patricia (04:29.44)
Maybe about six months or so I was very into studying Islam and that would mean like I was reading the quran I was speaking to some muslim friends from school The mosque there was a mosque right across from my high school and I would visit it. I would just you know be curious about it and then it I felt so drawn to it that I was like I I guess I better stop here because

I didn’t know I could be a Muslim really. Because you think about it like, that’s just so different from me. I’m interested in how it is, but that’s very different from making it part of your life.

Josh Galt (05:14.978)
Right, especially when you come from a culture that is so different.

Patricia (05:18.952)
Exactly, yeah. I was, I remember a friend said, you know, you could become Muslim if you really like Islam. And I remember looking at her like, like, you know, like I’m not, don’t, I don’t know how that would be. Especially the first thought that came to me was the judgment, you know, the judgment from my family, society. That’s right away what comes to a lot of us when we want to make such a radical change or shift.

So I was like, no. So then I just started to, I continue going my life, but I was feeling again, really drawn and I continue to study it and to make it a bit short. yeah, I was already 17 by the time I was like, I don’t care. Like I don’t care what my family says. This is what feels right for me. And yeah, so I became Muslim at age 17 and

Josh Galt (06:18.308)
So that still is really young though for someone to make such a monumental change in terms of belief and religion. So obviously that was something that was very deep in your heart that you were drawn to it. said, okay, I’m going to do this. So did you, you married, you married a Muslim man or like, how did you end up in London?

Patricia (06:25.354)
Mm-hmm.

Patricia (06:32.898)
Yeah, absolutely.

Patricia (06:38.702)
Yeah, so, you know, without much planning, I’ve been, so again, I was 17. I was in Canada still for another six years. And I was the happiest there. I was practicing Islam. I was going to the mosque. I met people. And then about college age, I was about 22. I moved to Michigan. And in Michigan is where I met

my husband because I was studying there. yeah, so I got married at 24 and we lived there. That’s the thing. I’ve been moving so much without really planning to fully as if, you know, life kind of has taken me. So then from Michigan, we moved to San Diego, California and we were there for some years. And then

Josh Galt (07:29.348)
I lived there for a year when I was a lot younger. It’s a beautiful city.

Patricia (07:35.022)
Oh yeah, I really liked it. was a very nice time there. And we just moved from San Diego to London, well to UK at the end of 2021. So it’s been three years. And we primarily moved because my husband wanted to do a master’s degree here. And I was like, yeah, sure. Why not? You know, let’s just go. So we’ve been here for three years. Yeah. And I…

Of course, as you can imagine, in every place I’ve lived, I have learned different things. And yeah, I really try to enjoy whatever life takes me.

Josh Galt (08:12.548)
So that’s a really interesting journey then because from Canada to Michigan and to San Diego and now to London. I imagine that Islam is different in each of those places. So how has that been? How did you settle or how did you discover Sufism? It seems like a very, maybe explain just a little bit about it. There’s a lot of information online so if anyone is listening to this, they’re probably already aware of what Sufism is. Since I spoke to you and we scheduled this, I’ve…

I’ve read a bunch, I’ve watched a bunch of videos, I’ve learned as much as I can. It’s really interesting the focus of Sufism and the different aspects than what most people, especially most Westerners, I would say, like most Americans, most people in Latin America, maybe people in Western Europe as well, than what we would think of as Islam. And it’s very different from what I experienced living in Indonesia, in Malaysia, traveling to the Middle East, et cetera.

Patricia (08:47.214)
Yeah.

Josh Galt (09:12.354)
What was that like and how did you end up at Sufism, the journey between the different, I guess, Muslim communities in those places?

Patricia (09:17.73)
Yeah, you’re absolutely right. Every place I have been, I have seen different faces of what can people refer to as Islam. And in my experience, Islam is Sufism and Sufism is Islam. That’s how I see it. But of course, as you can imagine, and with any, you know, any philosophy or religion or theology,

There are different interpretations of a religious text. in Islam there are different dimensions of understanding it according to our own level of consciousness. And I’m sure it’s the same for anything we see in life. But let’s talk about Islam and how it came to Sufism. So, in Islam, when I first became Muslim, it was just a typical, like, okay, pray five times a day, fast in Ramadan.

the most outside, I would call it like the shell, you know. In fact, Islamic law or what they also is known as Sharia, which has been of course spoken about a lot. Absolutely.

Josh Galt (10:30.168)
Yes, it’s a very political hot button topic actually that people don’t really know much about, myself included, but it’s it’s that one word that like, no, so yeah.

Patricia (10:36.782)
Yes, exactly. It’s that word that you use and you know, but you’re right. It’s very much associated with politics. So Sharia, Islamic law, that it’s the rules that a Muslim would need to abide by if they want to live a life of worship to God, right? So all those rules.

Believe me, it has taken me many years to understand the purpose because I’m one of those people that I don’t like doing things just because they tell me. I want to understand, you know? Yeah, I want to… Yeah. So, of course, at first they were just telling me, okay, now you’re Muslim, okay, now you just pray, now you fast and cover up and that’s it. And of course, at first I was 17, just as you said, so…

Josh Galt (11:16.984)
Yeah, I understand.

Patricia (11:33.162)
As I kept growing up and questioning things, I kept discovering further and further the reason as to why these rules exist and how they would benefit me and my life. So primarily I found Islam to be a beautiful religion with structure. And I have come to understand that human beings, need structure to some degree because structure, discipline helps us develop.

further at least. And again, there is a lot of things we can talk about regarding like freedom and structure discipline, but at least to me, my understanding has been that in order for me to achieve the freedom of thinking and the freedom of living that I’m experiencing, I have needed that structure. I love, I really love having to pray five times a day. I really love the 30 days fasting.

To me, it that fuel to like, this is like, it fuels my creativity, it fuels my curiosity. And there are deeper reasons to why that exists. So going back to that, yeah, I’ve seen different types of Muslims, different types of mosques, different types of ideologies within Muslims or Islam. Sufism happened to me, or it…

came to my knowledge around 2018 after I have gone through a very, very rough and difficult time in my life where I was not finding that benefit of religion anymore in my life. Okay. So I was in that moment where my faith was being challenged and I was like,

Okay, so I believe in God, I believe he does things for a reason. you know, I’m believing what the Quran is telling me that God loves me and all of that. But yet, I was faced with a test or I was faced with an experience that I was like, no, God cannot be doing this to me. What’s going on? know? And that moment, so that this experience was surpassing whatever my understanding of Islam up until then.

Patricia (13:55.038)
So at that moment I knew there was something more. was like, okay, there has to be because the Quran always says like, God does not give you something beyond your capacity to deal with it. So I was like, okay, there has to be a way for me to deal with this. And yeah, so then at that point, you know, through synchronicities, through a friend, through this and that, like I arrived at a gathering that was

Josh Galt (14:08.098)
Right.

Patricia (14:24.91)
from Sufism. And I began to understand so from 2018 until now I have discovered so much that and that so much means like the purpose of pain, the purpose of whatever pain I went through, the purpose of any disappointment or like I finally obtained those answers I was seeking through Sufism and all Sufism is Islam but in a way where

You go deeper. You don’t just stay at the five prayers or the fasting or the cover. Sufism is why are you doing it? Like why? Explain to me at a heart level, at your psyche level, how is this benefiting you in your day to day? And that’s what I have found with Sufism.

Josh Galt (15:13.188)
So now is that, because there are a lot of rituals and I understand how those rituals can provide structure. I think most religions have different things that are those rituals. But I think that that’s also part of the challenge in our modern day life, right? I mean, if you’re traveling, for example, how do you pray five times a day? There are some prayer rooms and airports or whatever, but there’s certain things where it’s like,

every religion it seems that we can rationalize those structures those those those rituals we can rationalize going and praying at the mosque or we can rationalize not going to mass if someone is a Catholic because well it’s this holiday or I’m doing this thing with my friends or whatever so did you find the peace of the answers through ritual or did you find it through more of the the esoteric aspects of Sufism

and in a deeper understanding what sort of led you there.

Patricia (16:17.452)
Yeah, definitely I would say that later because through the practice as you say, the prayer and all of that, it helps, but it only helps as much as you again, give it the meaning and understand why you’re doing it. So before I was doing it again, because I was told that, okay, if you’re a Muslim, we pray five times a day or we fast. Like that’s what being a Muslim is about. But

Rarely there was a more in-depth understanding of how is that going to help me when I’m facing a challenge like this where it was challenging my faith, you know? So…

Josh Galt (16:54.754)
Why do we do this? Is it just do it because God said to do it or is there a deeper meaning? What does that mean?

Patricia (17:02.261)
Yeah, so in Sufism, and again, the thing here that I would love for anyone who might listen to catch, and even Muslims themselves, because I have encountered a lot of Muslims who are against Sufism. Why? Because they are not, again, they don’t perceive how there is a need to go this deep, or there is a need to like…

see the esoteric meaning, you know, and they, a lot of people might start thinking, that’s a deviation. That’s a different thing from, you know, what the prophet said. But in reality, I mean, the prophet was always, he was never just saying, do this, do that, do that. Like for a lot of people, because clearly there was different levels of understanding. In any group of people, you’re gonna have different levels of understanding. So.

My experience is that through the prayers, through the rituals or through the fasting, it’s as if it slowly, slowly helps you open up to another level of like… And by level I don’t mean, I’m better than others or this. No, by level I mean like, know, like how deep you can go. And all Muslims understand that the Quran has different levels of understanding. That’s something we all know.

So those levels I think are tied to Sufism and how Sufism can always try to answer that question that what wounds are inside you that might prevent you or are disconnecting you from the divine or from God, know.

Josh Galt (18:50.212)
Sure. Why do you think that is? That’s really beautiful that looking deeper and that’s really at the heart of why I’m so curious about this topic and why I wanted to start this podcast because what you said is really profound. There are many Muslims who just kind of want to go through the motions. And so it’s almost like religion and I’ve seen this and I’m not attacking Islam for sure. This is very much the case with Christians as with many religions. We want to…

Patricia (19:17.902)
Mm-hmm.

Josh Galt (19:19.896)
you know, go to eternal life, for example. want to go, people want to go to heaven or whatever it is. And so they’re going to do basically the bare minimum in order to do that. But everything else gets rationalized. And why is it that people don’t want to go deeper? Like, what is the most important aspect of our journey as humans in this life? If not the spiritual.

And if you’re going to have a framework that you live your life by, it’s important to know why, isn’t it? Like, why do you think that people are, we live in a secular society, we live in a modern society, there’s so many things that distract us and draw our attention, but yet that longing is within everyone. Well, why do you think people don’t pursue that on a deeper level of, well, why am I praying five times a day? What does that really mean? And how can I go deeper with this? Why wouldn’t someone want to do that?

Patricia (19:53.582)
Yes.

Patricia (20:01.901)
You

Patricia (20:06.584)
That’s right.

Patricia (20:17.622)
I would say my experience is because it hurts. It really hurts to go deeper. And we obviously run away from pain. But again, this is the illusion. We keep believing that no, if I go deeper, it’s going to hurt. And we all feel at some level, if I go deeper, because going deeper also involves getting to know yourself more.

And that’s the part that most human beings run away from. That’s why they’re distractions. That’s why I prefer to keep scrolling or go here, go there, because why would I sit down with myself and ask me, why did this trigger me? Why did so and so bother me? It hurts to be in that position. So in fact, in Sufism, is a very common saying that.

whoever knows themselves knows their Lord because that’s the premise. In order to go deeper, it’s deeper within yourself. That’s what it actually means. And basically that’s the problem. Who would want that when you can be, I don’t know, traveling or spending time somewhere else, even though once you start doing that, it’s like, I find it, it’s the most pleasurable thing ever. Like that no money can buy, nothing else can.

can match the pleasure to keep understanding your motivations. It’s like other worlds open up, you know?

Josh Galt (21:48.1)
Absolutely, that’s one of the things that I was or that I learned in my my exploration of supism the last few weeks was that one of the the big parts of it is the dissolution of the ego and and the the goal of sort of going within and finding out yourself and setting that aside in order to connect back with God Has that been something that you have have found to be?

Patricia (22:01.783)
Mm-hmm.

Patricia (22:11.008)
Mm-hmm, yeah.

Josh Galt (22:16.526)
really true in your experience and how has that helped you just in life in general to go through that process?

Patricia (22:24.14)
Yeah, and again, I rated it. It has been painful, but it has been extremely rewarding. And how has that happened is that, again, since this experience around 2017, I started noticing that my discontent with that experience was based on the fact that it was completely against what my ego wanted. It was completely against what I had always thought.

that I wanted because whatever experience that was, it was challenging me to look at myself and be like, who are you without this thing? Who are you? Who are you without obtaining this thing you want? And I had no answer. I had no answer whatsoever. was like, no, I’m literally nothing without this thing I want. And that’s not… Yeah, exactly. An external, yes.

Josh Galt (23:18.616)
You mean an external thing, like a material thing or a position or status or something? Okay, okay.

Patricia (23:23.502)
Exactly, absolutely. So when I was challenged with you cannot get this, I was like, God, like this must be a mistake. Why wouldn’t I be able to get this? You know, and at that point I realized, wow, this is crazy. Like, because I never in my life imagined I will be the one saying God made a mistake, you know, because again, my own self concept was, oh, like I

I I fast, I’m a good Muslim. That’s my own self-concept. That was my own self-concept. And a lot of us have lots of blind spots, you know, until you get challenged or tested or whatever you want to call it with an experience that goes to your ego and be like, no, like the ego is like, no, you must have this because how can you not have it, you know? So as you say, yeah, throughout these years, it’s been a lot of work.

when it comes to my ego and and distinguishing what’s my it’s about aligning this is what i have found with Sufism it’s about aligning my wishes with God’s wishes because in Sufism it’s thought that if i mean in Islam but in Quran you have different references to like if you submit to God and by submission it means

God has a plan, right, for each person and each person is alive for a reason. So a lot of us are not sure sometimes why are we alive or as you know, I used to volunteer for people with suicidal ideation that they didn’t understand why should I continue on, you know. And when we are faced with those moments, it’s when you have to really

really go deep in me. No, I’m alive for a reason. And that’s what I keep holding on to you. And the more I have been able to distinguish my ego from what God wants from me, I have honestly been able to integrate what God wants for me. And that desire that I knew I had deep down, but it was covered by ego or wounds or trauma or whatever you want to

Josh Galt (25:25.731)
Yeah.

Patricia (25:48.212)
So yeah, I don’t know if I answered the question.

Josh Galt (25:51.234)
Yeah, well, it’s a very deep issue to examine. I think that the ego is such a challenging part of our human existence for everyone. And everything in this modern world feeds that. And it’s not simply that it’s a distraction, whether it’s status or whether it’s how many likes we get on a social media post or how much money we have or what our job is or whatever those things are, they…

Patricia (26:02.99)
haha

Patricia (26:06.636)
Yes, exactly.

Josh Galt (26:20.952)
They are a part of our existence as humans. yet, they are not. Anyone who is religious at all is going to admit that, well, yeah, this world is not my home. I’m going to the eternal life afterwards. Well, then why not focus on that? And that’s what I found so interesting about Sufism is that it’s looking for that reconnection with God. So with you,

Patricia (26:37.483)
You

Josh Galt (26:50.208)
Finding that and going through those challenges and not getting that thing you wanted that was external But being able to go deeper go through the pain and reconnect with God How has that helped you and how do you think I guess for other Muslims who are maybe just going through the motions We’re just doing the thing because it’s law, right? That’s I grew up in a very very strict Christian household. So there was a lot of legalism It’s like you do this and you don’t do this

Patricia (27:11.671)
huh, huh.

Patricia (27:17.358)
Mmm.

Josh Galt (27:20.212)
why because this is the way it is this is way you’re supposed to but that doesn’t make sense like i want to know why and if you if you at least explain to me it’s like well if you do this then it’s going to know disconnect you from god or it’s going to hurt you or it’s going to hurt god or whatever there’s consequences okay i can understand that but how do you think i mean you’ve you’ve done this you’ve been able to overcome sort of the external and be willing to go through the pain

Patricia (27:20.268)
Mm-hmm.

Patricia (27:25.038)
Yeah.

Patricia (27:32.723)
Uh-huh. Yeah.

Patricia (27:38.698)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Josh Galt (27:50.062)
How would you recommend other people that are just going through the motions who are Muslims be able to do that? Like what’s the secret?

Patricia (28:00.386)
You know, sadly I would dare say that it’s not until humans are faced sometimes, you know, because we don’t like to pay heed or to go deep when we are living a good life. When everything is going well, it’s very hard to get or snap out of that and be like, okay, wait, let me go deeper. But I would say, yeah.

Josh Galt (28:26.776)
because God is blessing us, so obviously I’m doing a great job spiritually, right? We use the external to justify.

Patricia (28:31.116)
Absolutely. You point to a great thing, I want to say that. That’s the thing. A lot of people, including me, we were saying like, okay, why is God doing this to me? We always, if faced with a challenge like this, why is God doing this to me? So we tend to ask, why when I have been good or I have been praying, I have been fasting?

Why? So we take this stance of God owes me because I’m doing good. He needs to pay me with blessings or he needs to pay me with things that I want. And that’s actually, think, the mentality of most people. And that was why I was hurt at that experience because I was like, wait, I left my life, I became Muslim, I did this, I did that. And this is why you’re giving me, you know? So this ego.

when it challenges God and now I look back and believe me, there is not a day really that goes by that I thank God for that challenge because it opened my eyes in ways I don’t think I could have ever opened. And what I mean by this, going back to your question, we all are going to face in one way or another moments in our life where we might feel lonely, where we might feel

betrayed or I don’t know anything Sad, depressed, depends, right? I think every single person, it is my belief and the belief of Islam that every human will have a chance to connect to God and maybe because in my experience it was through difficulties, but It doesn’t have to be that’s the thing. It’s about like if you’re living a good life Okay, ask yourself Okay, why?

Why am I having all these blessings? Why am I having wealth? Why am I having health? What am I supposed to do with my health? Am I really just sitting on the couch and eating? Is that why health is for? So you can ask yourself, why do I have all these wonderful things? What can I do to give back to society or to feel fulfilled in that way? I think the key is always

Patricia (30:56.234)
Asking ourselves how fulfilled I am Because each person’s path is very unique So my path will be very different perhaps from another person that loves Sufism and practices Sufism or another Muslim or a Christian whatever there will be similarities of course, but every step is very unique and It’s about Always trying to check in. Okay. Why am I fulfilled?

Does this fulfill me? Yes. Or this doesn’t fulfill me. Okay, why am I in this situation that’s not fulfilling? Because just as you mentioned, we live in this world that keeps just catering to the ego. But at the end of the day, having the ego satisfied is not a sign of being fulfilled because the ego does not have a stop. The ego will always want more and more. You give a person wealth, they will want more and more and more.

And they will always want more. And then if left unchecked, we are just these greedy people that starts doing things to get more and more. And what are we doing with that? So I think it’s always about keeping in check our motivations. That has really helped me a lot. And I think it can help many people.

Josh Galt (32:14.52)
That makes sense. The one thing I think that gets confusing is when you have the idea of, so I need to go within, I need to overcome the ego. The ego is a tool like anything else, so it can be a good thing. It can help you with confidence and going and doing something, speaking in public or whatever. But it can also obviously be to our detriment if the ego is running things. And so if…

Patricia (32:19.981)
Mm-hmm.

Patricia (32:32.555)
Yeah.

Patricia (32:36.536)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Patricia (32:42.498)
Josh Galt (32:44.28)
going within and setting that aside and then reconnecting with God, if we realize, well, this is all there is, is this connection with God. how, I think that there’s, it can become confusing, because then it’s like, well, if I don’t have an individual purpose, then why am I even here? If I’m just supposed to be connecting with God, then maybe I should go be a monk. And I think this is one of the things that a lot of people struggle with.

Patricia (33:09.953)
Mm-hmm.

Josh Galt (33:13.06)
questioned this when I was younger. It’s like, but there’s all these wonderful, enjoyable things and I see lots of people who serve God having this wonderful life. Aren’t we supposed to have our family and friends and have a good time and be healthy and be wealthy, all of these things? Am I supposed to go be a monk or am I supposed to go just be whatever it is in different religions?

Patricia (33:22.102)
Uh-huh.

Patricia (33:26.766)
Mm.

Patricia (33:31.063)
Uh-huh.

Patricia (33:38.85)
Mm-hmm.

Josh Galt (33:40.366)
That I think is a real challenge to come to grips with.

Patricia (33:45.326)
Yeah, you are absolutely right. And I also, of course, battled with that for a few years. And I have come to understand something really beautiful that, you know, in the past, I was also like that, I was like, in fact, when I was a kid, I wanted to be a nun. And then I wanted because I thought, OK, if I’m attracted to the life of spirituality, then it must mean that I have to be some sort of religious servant or something like that.

Josh Galt (34:14.04)
Right, right, yeah.

Patricia (34:15.202)
But no, reality is we all came with a different set of talents, different set of abilities, right? You could be a baker, you could be a business person, you could be someone who is a janitor or a cleaner or a cook. It doesn’t matter, really. It’s about how connected. Because we can connect to God through this world, through the ego, just as you say. The ego just needs to be

tamed in a way that’s serving you, you know? And there are so many things that I have learned in the past few years about this in particular, because for many years I was confused like, okay, what should I be then? Like if I’m very drawn to the spiritual, does that mean I should be secluded? Does that mean I need to just go far away? But no, I was able to understand that I’m meant to be…

fooling this world and a lot of us, majority of us need to integrate, need to integrate the life of this world with it a spiritual life because if we don’t then we risk living you know what many people want to escape either their problems or things like that and escapism is not what we are trying to do here we’re trying to integrate

this world like okay are you a teacher are you a worker are you this like and serving people or so serving society or you know doing whatever you want to do but understand is this really what i want to do or is it because society or pressure or my family or whoever i think that’s the big difference because in the past even when i studied like college i was like i’m gonna study business because my dad

Like I just wanted to please my family here and there. And then as I kept growing up, I’m like, no, but what really, really drives me and what really gives me passion is like psychology, spirituality. let me, and sometimes you may be able to do many things and society wants you to just have one job title, just one profession, just one tag, you know what? No, you can do as many things as you are called to do. What’s about that calling?

Patricia (36:38.235)
and it’s that calling that really makes all the difference I think.

Josh Galt (36:44.492)
Yeah, and that’s where we find the lessons, right? Because if we have a purpose for our lives, escaping that to, like you say, like the escapism from problems to go and just be spiritual, that can be an ego thing too. Whereas the reality is maybe we should go through those challenges and have those difficult times and really pursue our purpose in order to learn the lessons that we’re here to learn in order to become closer to.

Patricia (36:47.448)
Yeah.

Patricia (36:51.224)
Mm-hmm.

Patricia (36:58.03)
Exactly. Yeah.

Josh Galt (37:12.652)
How would you recommend for younger people? Because you were able to do something and as you know, my wife, Gabriella, is Mexican. And so I have gotten integrated with Mexican culture much more over the last few years. And I understand how strong that cultural bond is and the cultural norms. I’m sure, and actually, yeah, in other cultures around the world, there are similar sort of.

Patricia (37:21.611)
Yes.

Patricia (37:27.633)
huh.

Patricia (37:33.622)
huh. huh.

Josh Galt (37:40.484)
frameworks for your part of this family. This is how we are. This is what you’re going to do whether you want to or not. How would you recommend young people who feel that calling as you did in a very young age toward the spiritual, toward God and that’s in their heart and it’s that desire but that maybe they grew up in a secular family or maybe they’re as you did their interest and their calling toward God is different from the religious framework that their family is.

Patricia (37:43.95)
Uh-huh.

Josh Galt (38:08.932)
Like what advice would you give to a young person who’s like, I know that this is like deep and I know I have to do this, but I don’t know what to do because my family’s not going to approve. My culture is not going to approve. What do I do?

Patricia (38:09.346)
Mm-hmm.

Patricia (38:20.91)
Yeah, honestly, that is it’s very tough. Let’s validate that it’s not going to be very easy, but certainly what I would recommend, what I believe I did and truly helped me greatly is understand that all the fears that come up, all the fears of rejection, like they will reject me or they will judge me. They will, they will.

like it’s such a high price to pay when we keep living like that. It’s a huge, huge price to pay when we keep living in this life of I’m not gonna do what my calling is because I don’t wanna displease this person or my family or this or that. So, I mean, I kept listening to, of course, my intuition, my calling, but it didn’t come.

Overnight obviously it’s perfectly normal to be confused for a few years in fact it’s it’s part of the process because Being confused means you know you’re trying to integrate both right you’re calling for spirituality and This world and material world. It’s calling you and pressuring you to be something else so Yeah, of course. I was confused as well for many years, and when I speak to other Muslims are young

A lot of them say, I’m confused, I’m confused. I don’t know what to do. don’t know what to do. Confusion is a big sign that your calling is not aligned with what the society or family or whoever is asking you, you know? So it’s very important to take it easy, to be kind on ourselves, which was something I was not…

fully aware of and just try to go with the best of what you know how to navigate the situation. As we go along, we keep learning new tools, we keep meeting people that help us along the way, but it’s a matter of just remaining

Patricia (40:41.28)
as patient as possible with the process and not trying to rush the confusion to end.

Josh Galt (40:47.908)
And what role does community play in that, especially for younger people? Is there, I mean, obviously we’re all very connected online now at people all around the world. And so there’s, there can be risks of that, but also benefits of that, of finding community, whether it’s online or in your local area, et cetera. Like, does that play a big role, do you think? And what are some of the pitfalls that people need to look out for?

Patricia (41:06.702)
Mm-hmm.

Josh Galt (41:17.314)
Because, for example, in your journey, you were in Canada, then you were in Michigan, then San Diego, now in London. The communities, I imagine, are very different. And so how did you navigate that? How would you give advice to a younger person who are themselves navigating this issue of, I need to find community. I want someone to give me feedback and help me along this journey, et cetera.

Patricia (41:28.664)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Patricia (41:43.67)
Yeah, well you know it is my belief again that every person has their own journey, right? So sometimes meeting people that might give you feedback that maybe hurts you or maybe it’s not helpful to you the moment for whatever reason, that’s part of the process too. So for example, whatever a person might be,

Try to engage with the community of where you are because community does help definitely. Community is something we all should strive to belong to. again, if we’re not in a position where we can fully discern, like, okay, this community is beneficial for me or not, that’s the problem, right? If we’re young like I was, I would just keep going to certain communities, but I was not feeling anything.

good really but I was just going because for the sake of going right so now if I give advice to that younger me I’ll be like okay it’s it’s fine like does it resonate with you what they are saying what they’re discussing like the people you are talking to do they resonate with you and probably the younger me would say not really or I don’t know you know I don’t know and it’s okay not to know it because we’re all a different

places, you know? But I think it’s very important not to isolate. A lot of young people, I’m finding more and more they’re isolating because of reasons like this. They say, why am I gonna go to the mosque or this or that? They don’t understand me. They don’t this, they don’t that. And again, yeah, I can understand that, but I always approach life with this curiosity mindset of like,

Okay, what can I learn? Let me go, let me listen to the lecture, let me listen to whoever is speaking. Maybe I’m gonna learn something, whether from them or from a person I’m gonna talk to, from anything. We can always learn something. And if we go with that mindset of, me see what I can learn that’s gonna benefit my path, I always find answers wherever I go.

Josh Galt (43:58.926)
That’s really good. Yeah. And the risk of isolation is for sure when there’s confusion or when, mean, I went through that as well in my life of, I’m just going to figure this out on my own. Like, obviously my, it’s me and God and I don’t like what these people are telling me. And I don’t like the judgment from this group and I don’t agree with this. So I’m just going to figure it out myself. And that makes it more challenging probably. Yes, it’s important. We have to do that as well. Even if we have a community, we can’t just believe whatever they tell us or

Patricia (44:28.108)
Yeah, yeah.

Josh Galt (44:28.196)
I mean, we have to go within and do the inner difficult work, as you said. But that’s a really great way to approach it is, I’m gonna go learn and I’m gonna listen, and then I’m going to connect that and contrast that, compare it with what I know about the Quran and what I believe. And if it doesn’t make sense, well, there might be some lesson that I can learn from that, but if…

Patricia (44:32.717)
Yeah.

Patricia (44:46.71)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Josh Galt (44:54.384)
Maybe there’s a lot of things, but maybe there’s nothing, but I’m going to go with an open mind and listen to that. I think that’s really important. The biggest challenge that I see in the West for Islam, and I would love to get your opinion on this, is that it’s very politicized. It’s fascinating because you lived this on your journey from all through North America and now to the UK. Those are the hotbed areas, I think, of…

Patricia (44:59.074)
Yep. Yeah.

Patricia (45:05.07)
Mm-hmm.

Patricia (45:09.356)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Patricia (45:18.766)
Hmm.

Josh Galt (45:22.826)
Islam being politicized. So

Josh Galt (45:28.77)
Not to get too deep into the weeds on the political side of it, but how did you navigate that? Being part of these societies that in many ways, a lot of people are, they will just immediately make a judgment because you are Muslim. They won’t look any deeper. They don’t realize that there’s a lot of different types of Islam and that, especially in America, right? Like there is…

Patricia (45:45.582)
Hmm.

Patricia (45:53.998)
Mm-hmm.

Josh Galt (45:55.306)
some definite stereotypes about it and some immediate judgments and rejections, et cetera, which obviously are not a good thing in any way, but there’s reasons I think that some people can use to justify why they look at it a certain way. So how did you navigate that and how should societies, I guess, well, like for example, in the US, how can we overcome that, those?

stereotypical judgments to say, wait, but there are actually billions of people who are genuinely seeking God and worshiping God, and this is the way that they do that. How can we live together and love each other and just agree that, this is your way, this is my way? Cool, we’re good, you know?

Patricia (46:41.614)
Yeah, that’s absolutely a wonderful question to explore because that has always been my quest as well. But you know, to be very honest with you, throughout the years I lived in Canada, in US and now here, I have felt extremely blessed and I also question it. I have been extremely blessed to… I never really encountered anyone.

who looked down on me or judged me. And you know, I think I got the answers to why. I had friends, I had close friends who did have very, very difficult experiences as Muslim with other people. And you know, one in San Diego, a friend of mine, like they go, they hijab, like ripped at a parking lot, things like that. But again, speaking about my personal experience and why I don’t think I may have encountered that.

Josh Galt (47:30.467)
Wow.

Patricia (47:38.444)
Well, again, of course, I feel very blessed. always, no matter where I’ve gone, I have been able to make friends from different backgrounds. And I believe, you know, we all have this intuition, right? We all human beings have more so connected than others. But I have personally have always loved any

people that is willing to be curious or at least not judge right away. We all, and that’s the thing, we need to acknowledge that all of us have our own judgments in a way, right? And it’s important to acknowledge them, distinguish. So for example, I personally, whenever I, I used to live in a neighborhood with primarily, primarily a lot of white people. So at first I was like,

If they see me walking, maybe they’ll judge me or maybe they’ll look down at me or maybe something. Right. So I was afraid for a moment. Then I thought. Like, OK, I’m getting this from the news, like or from what I heard here, what I heard there, what I heard there. My experience has not been like that. Why does it have to change? And in life, we cannot go just with fears, you know, like so I will go out, I would walk. I made great friends. We had great talks. And I think my

Josh Galt (48:57.027)
Yeah.

Patricia (49:03.116)
My disposition was also helpful in the sense that I let go of that fear of like they will judge me. And I was like, no, we’re all human beings. We all have that humanity in common. And if anyone is curious, know, great. And, but I also, I just don’t like to ever judge anyone based on their religion or their path because

I am fully aware, mean, fully throughout this experience is that God really loves everyone and their path might look very different. And again, Islam emphasizes that Sufism emphasizes that. So I have seen that clearly and sorry, so I have navigated that through not allowing these fears to take over me and not isolating myself from communities that are not Muslim, for example.

Josh Galt (50:02.114)
because fear is a judgment as well.

Patricia (50:05.13)
Absolutely, exactly. So again, in my experience, I have not come across anything hurtful, like anyone doing anything to me. Of course online, that’s a different, like that’s why I don’t even read like much of this stuff that happens online, because it hurts me. And I’m like, no, I prefer not to.

Josh Galt (50:21.71)
Yeah.

Josh Galt (50:25.838)
very very different for sure. That’s my experience as well around the world and that’s one of the things that’s so frustrating is that everywhere I have gone like 99 % of the planet probably more we just see each other as humans. We don’t have these stark divisions. It’s you get the politicians and you get the media and you get all of these things that are saying these people bad these people good.

Patricia (50:52.214)
Yeah.

Josh Galt (50:52.472)
and they stir up all of this anger and this fear and the shame and all of these things that then causes emotions in people. It causes that fear. But the reality is, mean, nearly everyone we meet, we just want, like we all kind of want the same thing. So whether I’m in Africa or Asia or India or Latin America, like I found that people just, want to have something to do. They want to have a purpose, a job.

Patricia (50:57.357)
Yeah.

Patricia (51:12.172)
Yeah.

Patricia (51:20.28)
Mm-hmm.

Josh Galt (51:20.91)
career, et cetera, that they like. They want to have time with their family. They want to be at peace. They want to feel safe. Like they want to be healthy. It’s, we all kind of just, we want to be free to be human and to learn and all of these things. That’s why it’s, I think it’s really important. This internal journey, this spiritual journey, this seeking of God to make it real as opposed to just going through the motions. And tell me what you think about, about this. But my, my view is that

Patricia (51:27.169)
huh. huh.

Patricia (51:46.604)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Josh Galt (51:49.954)
If we’re just going through the motions, then God is not necessarily the focus. Our external lives are the focus. But if we are genuinely seeking from the heart to know God in whatever way that is, whatever faith, whatever religion, that’s going to make it much easier then to be perceptive and to be able to filter a lot of the fear and the lies that were being told about the division of why we should be divided.

Patricia (51:57.518)
Mm-hmm.

Patricia (52:10.232)
Mm-hmm.

Patricia (52:17.742)
Mm-hmm.

Josh Galt (52:18.296)
and it will give us tools that we don’t even realize until we really go down that spiritual path to navigate modern day life, right?

Patricia (52:27.566)
Absolutely, no you are 100 % around that. That’s my experience too. Like the more I have really tried to focus on doing or thinking even in a way that to the best of my knowledge is pleasing to God because again like judging people is not pleasing to God. know, I mean again it’s just going like

Josh Galt (52:54.596)
you

Patricia (52:57.44)
we can always only see a tiny bit of what’s going on in that life, know, in that human life. Just as you say, it’s the more I have been able to understand and to discern, okay, these are my fears, which again, the ego is that, the ego is fears, the ego is all of those wounds that, okay, because I don’t want to be rejected, I’m going to do this. So again,

As most of us are so entangled and busy with this, like, how to manipulate my life, how to do everything so I don’t have to feel this pain of rejection or judgment or abandonment or whatever, you know. And we just spend countless amounts of energy and focus on what do I say so this person likes me or what do I, you know. And then you just I used to be

That’s why I back like my early 20s or yeah, my early 20s I had a lot of anxiety because I feel like Okay, it was a constant What do I do so I don’t have to face or feel these pains, you know this pain? And and then now it’s like you you live so much so much more lighter When you let go of that and again, it’s not overnight, right? But when you focus on like, okay god, I really

want to use the abilities you have given me in order to just do what I’m supposed to do in my life, which you don’t have to know right away what you’re supposed to do, but you keep discovering it, you know? It’s a journey. And again, this past seven years, it’s when I have been able to get more of those answers that I was looking for in my early 20s or even teenage years that I wanted those answers right away.

Josh Galt (54:38.187)
journey.

Patricia (54:55.778)
But they didn’t come until now, you know? Yes.

Josh Galt (54:59.086)
takes time. You mentioned anxiety. What role, if any, does shame play in Sufism? and people will disagree with me, but I see in Christianity and in Catholicism that there is a hefty dose of shame in that, you’re born a sinner and you need to constantly be repenting, et cetera. Which is, that’s one way to go in.

eternal and maybe work with the ego. A little bit different framing of that journey. But shame is a big part of many world religions. Does it play a role in Sufism? And is that connected to the anxiety or is it something where there’s not that sense of you’re born a horrible person and everything you have to do, the reason you have to go pray is because you’re such a horrible person and you have to constantly be

and changing to get closer to God. Like is that, how does Sufism look at that topic I guess? Because shame is a big thing in religion and personally I find that shame is not a real high frequency and I don’t see how that would be productive in connecting to God. But every religion uses it in a different way so.

Patricia (56:01.112)
Yeah.

Uh-huh.

Patricia (56:14.69)
Mm-hmm.

Patricia (56:21.238)
Absolutely. gosh, yeah. well, Islam and Sufism, we are born free of sin. That’s the belief. You are born free of sin. And you acquire sin based on the nature of the world. It’s impossible to be in this world without sinning. That’s the belief. Now, what Islam teaches is that for as long as you are in this world, which is called the lower,

Josh Galt (56:32.909)
Interesting.

Patricia (56:51.116)
the lowest world because in Islam it will be that. This is the lowest of the worlds and they are like above, know, more above. So while you are in this world, which is it prompts you to sinning, there are tools to help you reduce those moments of sin. Now, what does sin mean in Sufism and Islam? It’s like a rupture of consciousness because we are supposed to

If we use those tools that Islam gives us and Sufism gives us, we would be connected to God in a more or so constant basis. But our sinning is correlated to that rupture of consciousness or that rupture in that connection. So it’s perfectly normal that being raised in a household and Sufism says this a lot, like we all have wounds, it’s inevitable.

to grow up without wounds. Doesn’t matter what parents or caregivers we got, there will be one way or another that we acquire wounds, right? So those woundings, of course, shame is a big one, codependency or sorts of things that we acquire. And because we don’t yet have the tools as a child, most of us, to deal with those situations,

Once you reach a moment that you are like, okay, I’m not going to be a victim anymore. I have the capacity to deal with this. And see, this is something I see a lot, of course, in all religions, mean, different people I’ve met, but in Islam in particular, it saddens me a lot how a lot of cultures, a lot of different Muslims that belong to different cultures, Southeast Asia or, you know, whatever you call it.

due to the generational trauma they have had, they have confused Islam with their culture. So a lot of them I have seen, they have this mentality of like, no, this is a life God gave me and that’s I just have to be patient and I can know better my circumstances. A lot of them believe that.

Patricia (59:14.464)
No, this is my destiny. I cannot better my life and I have to go through this painful situations, right? And that’s actually totally opposite really of what Islam says. But I think the reason why a lot of people have stayed with that mindset, again, it’s due to trauma, due to those wounds that have not been addressed. And shame is just as you described, like I was shamed, you know, within Catholicism too, like

You you you need to pray because you raise your voice at your mom or this and that you need to ask forgiveness That’s used in every religion of see I think because it’s a human nature to use shame to control so yeah in Islam I have met a lot of friends that were born and raised Muslim and they have the same narrative of like you are they feel like they’re

Josh Galt (59:55.524)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Patricia (01:00:10.848)
a sinner and God cannot really give them grace because they’re so dirty, so far away from God. How can they dare believe that God has something good for them in their life? So this narrative keeps them stuck in this like, no, I’m in darkness and that’s it. I’m just going to live this torment or this anxiety or this poverty or this is and they don’t really connect to Islam in a way of like, no, you have the tools.

to get out of this, you

Josh Galt (01:00:43.01)
And what role does grace play in that? You mentioned grace and that’s obviously in Christianity a big part of it and that grace, that forgiveness in the Christian framework comes from Jesus sacrificing himself on the cross, etc. In Islam, where does that grace come from?

Patricia (01:01:03.17)
Yeah, honestly, it comes from God himself because everything God has created and given us in the belief of Islam is out of his grace. And the fact that we don’t understand sometimes how bad things happen. And by quotes, I mean like sometimes we in our own life perceive something as bad.

But in reality, it turns out to be wonderful a few years down the road that without that horrible experience, you wouldn’t have, I don’t know, learned something very, very valuable. So that’s something I would love for more Muslims to connect to because it is in Islam. And in fact, every verse, not every verse, every chapter of the Quran,

opens up with in the name of God the most merciful the most compassionate every single one opens up with that yet when you may attend Islamic lectures or anything like that I have noticed that a lot of the emphasis is placed on the punishment if you don’t do this this bad thing will happen to you you know and it’s it’s that same narrative yeah

Josh Galt (01:02:17.346)
Yeah. Fear.

Patricia (01:02:21.004)
the fear of like, shouldn’t be doing this. Quran says don’t do this. If you do this, this terrible thing happens. And again, that fear to me, it did horrible things. Like from Catholicism and then Islam, like I realized that I cannot connect to God through that. And there has to be another way. So the more I keep connecting to his mercy and his grace and to thank him for

those challenges he has given me that have turned to be wonderful, truly wonderful things, I have opened myself more up to his grace as in like, feel it, you know, it’s like, okay, I feel how he’s blessing me in every instance, like even being here with you, you know, or being able to discuss this or something as simple as like I was ill, like a couple.

weeks ago and I couldn’t breathe properly because my sinuses and just their breath how we take it for granted you know like all those things we take for granted and but Islam emphasizes so much how merciful God is and I noticed that most people forget that most people don’t connect to that if we were to connect to that I don’t think there would be so much shame or so much

that feeling of anxiety, anguish, desperation of like, I made this sin, now how can I move on? And that’s why so many people sadly end up terminating their lives or end up doing even worse things because they’re not connecting to that grace that is available to all of us.

Josh Galt (01:04:04.004)
Do you think there’s been a distortion in Islam? Because as you said, Islam is Sufism and Sufism is Islam. There seem to be many, many sects or divisions in Islam as there are in every religion. But the ones that get the attention are not the aspects or not the components of Islam that are preaching the mercy.

and the grace and the love and the peace, but it’s more of the warring elements, more of that extreme, at least these are the ones that get the attention, but also sometimes they get attention with good reason. Do you think that over the last 500 years or 900 years, because originally Sufism was part of Islam, correct? Or it was the foundation of Islam?

Patricia (01:04:55.768)
Correct, yeah, that’s… Yeah, it was simply what the Prophet would do. Back when the Prophet brought Islam through revelation, there was no such word as Sufism because it was implied, you know, it was part of everything he would do and how he taught it. If you ask non-Sufi Muslims now, like Sufism, they will be like, that’s a deviation again, that’s a distortion.

And again, just as you said, there is this back and forth. And you know, the question is so beautiful because God says in the Quran, had he wished he would have made one community, had he wished it would have been just one community and there wouldn’t be any of these issues of back and forth and this sex divisions and that. But I think the wisdom behind

all of these differences or distortions or whatever you want to call them is that they really prompt us to go deep into, why does this exist? What are they preaching? What are they teaching? It’s about contemplating because Quran again mentions a lot of like contemplation. If you think about it, he gave us a faculty of thinking which a lot of people tend to not really utilize when it comes to

to religion. might just be like, I was born and raised in this sect or this denomination or this. And no integration into that faculty of like, okay. And Quran has a lot of examples of prophets whose fathers, parents, fathers, were not Muslim. And when we say Muslim in the Quran, it’s monotheist, like people that

that would just look up to one God rather than polytheism, for example. they would define, like prophets would tell the parents, okay, I’m sorry, I’m not gonna follow your path because I’d rather be a Muslim or one that submits to one God. So yeah, it’s that challenge that not because I was born into one thing, I don’t have the ability to think.

Patricia (01:07:16.896)
and observe like, is this the right path for me? I think that’s what God really wants us to address no matter what religion.

Josh Galt (01:07:25.124)
Where do you see Sufism going over the next five, 10, 50 years? Like where do you see the future of religion in general, but specifically the Sufism?

Patricia (01:07:40.621)
say

Patricia (01:07:44.398)
You know, I believe more people would start questioning these things because, as you may notice, a lot of changes in the world have happened very quickly, like in the past 10, 20 years, whatever. The changes, the pace has been quicker, quicker, quicker. And I don’t think it’s sustainable.

for human beings to keep going at this pace without integrating spirituality into their life. It’s not really sustainable because so many changes cannot just be processed at an intellectual level alone. So that’s why I believe that whether it is Sufism or another tool for spirituality, but for Sufism itself,

I would say that more Muslims would start to realize that Sufism is Islam and it’s just a matter of integrating their soul into their practices and not just going with the emotions or the flow of what they’ve been told to do and to actually question, right? Like, how is this helping me? I think there’ll there’ll come a point soon, maybe.

more and more people are starting to realize this and yeah again with all these changes I believe it can increase.

Josh Galt (01:09:12.004)
Do you think that there will be a crash between Sufism and, for example, transhumanism? As you mentioned, the intellectual aspect, but with transhumanism, it takes it even a step further to where, well, we’re just going to upload our consciousness to a robot and we’re going to live forever. Completely rejecting the idea of spirit and soul. That’s not for transhumanists. They don’t care about that. They care about the material world. And that is really

As I see it, that’s at the underpinning of everything that is happening with our technological advancements and whatnot in the world today. But there’s a very strong sort of transhumanist philosophical framework behind it. How do you think Sufism will react with that?

Patricia (01:09:57.464)
Yeah.

Patricia (01:10:02.072)
Well, know, as in every moment of history, there will be moments where in fact we’re going to lose more Muslims, I think, because by losing Muslims I say that because more people get confused, there’ll be more confusion. in fact, it came to my mind there is a narration by the Prophet Muhammad.

who said that Islam started as something strange and it’s gonna end as something strange as well because more and more people might believe that either, okay, this technology is not aligning with these old traditions and these things that religion say. they will, as you say, like they will, exactly. They believe it’s like not.

Josh Galt (01:10:51.95)
We’ve moved past it. We’ve advanced beyond it.

Patricia (01:10:58.754)
together. And it’s sad because I feel as humans, we all, no matter where we come from, what we believe, we need a moral compass, right? We need beliefs. We need to understand limits as to where does this start, where does this end begin in order to preserve ourselves and society, right? So

It’s hard to say for sure, but at least in the past maybe that I have observed from when I became Muslim 2006 to now, there has been an increased spike in people seeking spirituality. I have perceived that least within Muslim communities. I think in other communities as well. But now I think of course we’re going to face new challenges, different challenges and

Josh Galt (01:11:40.324)
Yes.

Patricia (01:11:50.826)
It’s up to each of us to understand our moral compass and to discern, okay, this, I don’t know, AI or technology, like how does Islam approve of it? And there can be many situations where it’s perfectly okay because Islam is never against the actualization of a human being or innovation at a technological level. It’s never against that. So long as it’s not harming, right?

human beings or society. As you know, like in many societies, for example, their fertility rate is going down rapidly. A lot of them are isolating, no more marriage, no more this. Like you need to preserve society in a way and the values and all of that. So it’s a very careful balance game as to what new advancements will really benefit us, our spirituality, our life and society.

Josh Galt (01:12:30.36)
Yes.

Patricia (01:12:49.494)
and which ones might just be plainly harmful or evil, you know?

Josh Galt (01:12:54.178)
Yeah, and where does Islam find that lie? For example, in Christianity, there’s, I think for most people who are serious about their faith, they see a point in time with technology where if Elon Musk says you have to get a chip in your brain and it’s gonna have the number 666 on it, well, no, I’m not gonna do that. So that for many Christians, they would say that that’s the mark of the beast, not gonna do it.

Is there something like that in Islam in terms of technology, in terms of a red line that just, you know, we’ll use it as a tool up to a point, but then no more because now it becomes something that is in opposition to what God would want for us to do.

Patricia (01:13:39.66)
Yeah, and you see that’s why in Islam we have what we call jurists who are people that are specialized in in providing what’s called a fatwa or a religious ruling with anything new that keeps coming up. So for example, yeah in the past let’s say if a couple was not able to conceive and they had to do IVF or something like that, technology you know.

they are in charge of saying, yeah, it is allowed because this is and this or with these conditions, whatever, you know, so they are in charge of deducing the point because if they leave it to more commoners like us, it’s there’s a huge risk of like, I’m going to say yes, you might say no, and then the community is going to be even worse display, you know, and even then, of course, there will be certain

differences, right, of opinion, deducing the laws. But nevertheless, most of the time the jurists, even if they come from different schools of thought within Islam, most of them tend to agree on a lot of aspects. Some are, of course, more conservative than others, and then it’s up to the Muslim person that practices Islam to decide, like, okay,

this is too conservative, maybe for me. And I believe that this one harm me or this one harm this. So they can choose from those jurists which one resonates more with

Josh Galt (01:15:22.404)
Okay, so there is sort of a leadership in the faith and the religion that then will look at those things and say if it’s harmful or not in terms of technology.

Patricia (01:15:34.272)
Yeah, because they do need to look at so many different, know, how to deduce the law is not too simple. It’s not just a matter of what I feel. They also involve reasoning. They also involve so many other sciences to deduce how it’s going to help us. Maybe now they say it’s not allowed, but then like with the COVID vaccine, I remember at the beginning, I think they were saying no, but then they changed it, you

It can evolve, yeah.

Josh Galt (01:16:05.902)
So there’s nothing then like the mark of the beast for Christians in terms of the technology that Islam would say, well, we know where this is going. Okay. Interesting. I want to ask because you do come from a Catholic background. So I’m curious about this because I’ve noticed this trend this year especially, and just even in recent weeks, it’s gotten more and more and more. And that is the trend of

Patricia (01:16:13.448)
Not that I know of. Yeah, not that I know of.

Josh Galt (01:16:34.702)
Catholicism and the traditional Catholicism making a huge comeback with celebrities and influencers in the West. And I’m sure you’re aware of it with having roots in North America and being in the UK, which is sort of the epicenter, it seems like, all of the social and religious sort of conflicts and conversations and political conversations. But…

Have you noticed that this trend of celebrities and influencers that are coming back to Jesus and I mean in the UK you have Russell Brand for example who was obviously a big partier and many other things in his past now he’s like the only thing he talks about in recent months on his social media is Jesus. Have you noticed that? What do you think about it? And is there something similar happening in Islam?

Patricia (01:17:20.974)
You

Patricia (01:17:32.11)
Hmm. You know, I have noticed it not to a big extent because to be very honest with you, I left social media in 2018 because I really needed to, yeah, I really needed to focus. Any personal social media, I don’t have any of it. But of course, I am aware my husband does still have social media and things like that. The thing is that

Again, it’s very hard to know motivations, to know why people do what they do. But in Islam, what I have seen, there was actually a big tendency of a lot of people, when all these political topics start to occur, a lot of people start selling books about why I left Islam, or why I’m not a Muslim anymore, or why…

know, why Islam is this and that. So it’s like, I don’t know, is that trend where people that were supposed Muslims leave their religion and they actually sell a lot of books or podcasts or whatever to say, yeah, Islam is this and that. that just so they just spit so much hatred, right? And I found that very interesting.

Josh Galt (01:18:53.028)
And are they going secular or are they going to another religion?

Patricia (01:18:58.088)
Some of them, don’t know names on top of my head, but remember a couple of them on YouTube that went to Christianity and others just secular. But the most would be Christianity, like they become Christians, which again, for me it’s like, okay, you are free to do what you want, but I don’t understand that having to open up a YouTube channel just to spit hatred about Islam, to attack, to write books about it.

Josh Galt (01:19:22.724)
to attack Islam.

Patricia (01:19:27.112)
I personally, that’s what really always really made me curious like why do you have to do that? Because again, I believe that if you found a religion that really fulfills you, it’s going to give you tranquility, peace, it’s going to really keep you busy discovering things about that religion and that compassion. So that’s why it kind of doesn’t align with, I don’t understand it, know, it doesn’t align with my vision of how why would that happen?

Yeah, the trends, I don’t know, to me it’s a bit strange when they kind of always go both ways. Like maybe that the person, they do have influence power and they actually did find, you know, something good in it and they really want to talk about it and use their influence for it. But more often than not, to me it feels a bit like

why do you have to overdo it sometimes? And that’s the thing. I wouldn’t know their motivations. And that’s why when I don’t understand things like that, I’m like, God, you know, I don’t know. As long as they are not saying things that really harm others, know? Yeah.

Josh Galt (01:20:31.576)
Absolutely.

Josh Galt (01:20:47.62)
And that’s really at the heart of it. Yeah, it’s impossible to know people’s motivation. So I don’t want to be overly judgmental. I’ve just noticed this trend of, there’s a lot of people suddenly, you know, going back to Catholicism. And it’s not so much. The interesting thing is that, you know, that there was sort of a boom in Christianity, not in Catholicism, but in more Protestant Christianity in the late 90s, early 2000s, contemporary Christian music and all of that.

Patricia (01:21:11.48)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Josh Galt (01:21:17.208)
And then the last 20 years or so, 25 years, there’s been a definite falling away and a leaving of the church in America especially. And now the last couple of years, it seems like all these people are going back to their roots, but they’re not going back to their Protestant roots as much as they’re going back to Catholicism in a more traditional way. And the interesting thing to me is that it seems like people are genuinely seeking spirituality, which is, that’s a good thing.

Patricia (01:21:17.293)
Yeah.

Patricia (01:21:47.544)
Uh-huh.

Josh Galt (01:21:47.63)
People are looking for something that is more rooted in old traditions. They don’t wanna just go back to the church that they grew up in when they were kids with their parents. They’re going back hundreds of years or thousands of years maybe, which is interesting. then it’s also, I get skeptical because of the transhumanist component of it. For example, the Hallow app is the number one prayer app for Catholics in the world. So.

That makes it the number one most influential Christian technology on the planet. And the biggest investment funds who have funded this thing, hundreds of millions of dollars, Peter Thiel and other big VC funds, who have very strong transhumanist leanings. So I’m like, wait a second, why would someone who doesn’t care about the soul at all

Patricia (01:22:38.286)
Mm.

Josh Galt (01:22:42.082)
be investing in this. Yeah, because they think they can make money, but then there’s a risk for that. So I won’t go off on that tangent, but the question I guess is what do you do to ensure that the daily practices that you’re doing are focused on? I’m not doing this because it’s trendy. I’m not doing it because it’s, you know, I feel like I have to do it, but I’m doing it because I genuinely want to know God. And if I

Patricia (01:22:47.31)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Josh Galt (01:23:09.024)
I’m genuinely seeking and I want that relationship. want that connection with the divine. I don’t need to post about it on social media every five minutes because like that’s not why I’m doing it. How can people and it’s a tricky question because yeah, you don’t want to judge people’s motives, but at the same time it’s like. If your purpose is to be a creature. That’s that’s one thing, but if you’re.

Patricia (01:23:16.814)
Mm-hmm.

Patricia (01:23:21.388)
Yeah. Yeah.

Patricia (01:23:34.188)
Yeah, except. Yeah.

Josh Galt (01:23:37.806)
doing other things and now you’re using your platform or your influence to try and push this and beat people over the head with it. Where does your deep love come from?

Patricia (01:23:43.65)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And…

That’s a wonderful point you bring because religion will always be used as well as a huge tool for manipulation of the masses in different ways, you know? it’s clear how, as you mentioned earlier towards the beginning, how each person does have that calling towards some to transcend that we all know there’s something out there at some level, at some level.

You know, and it’s extremely dangerous when people empower or with wealth or that they don’t care about the soul, get a hold of that knowledge of understanding that every human, know, most humans, maybe not them, because they may be over that for some reason, but we’ll follow religion.

Josh Galt (01:24:19.448)
Yes.

Patricia (01:24:48.686)
or something, you know? They will do something like that to… It’s very real. I in every religion I see how it’s used as a tool for manipulation. It’s very sad. It’s extremely sad. going back to the question, which I think is connected.

As I mentioned, I do try to reduce to a large extent my social media exposure, which I don’t want to completely eliminate it because again, we also need this contact with the world and what’s going on and that. but yeah, at first when I knew I needed to really focus on my heal and my path, yeah, I didn’t look at social media for a good year, like a good solid year, no.

Josh Galt (01:25:21.998)
Sure.

Patricia (01:25:38.228)
then I started to like just getting the second hand you know for my husband or here or there but now what I do is

When I notice my ego, it starts to act up a little, especially in settings where, let’s say work, right? Where we have a tool like social media, but just for work, where they like put recognitions or this or that, and they put our photos or whatever you do, things like that. So that’s where I notice that, like, wait, this is what the mechanism is. Like this is meant to…

throw you there and be like, the ego is like, why are you there? You need to be there. Why didn’t you did this? You did this. Why are you, know, stuff like that. And as soon as I know a great tool is to start noticing really, to start noticing because it all happens very swift, very suddenly your ego can start feeding you with information that why are you left behind? Why are you this? You know, all of those thoughts.

I think the most important thing is to notice it. And for that, it took me a few years of meditation, of course therapy. Like it doesn’t happen overnight, but to be aware of our thoughts can really, really do wonders. Because as soon as I’m aware of a thought that I distinguish, it’s my ego, then I move to another technique, which

This is a Sufi technique, a spiritual technique, which might sound a bit odd, but I’ll say it. You picture yourself in your dying moments, like literally in your deathbed. We are all going to go through that moment. So you envision yourself dying and really questioning, what am I worried about in that moment? Like really in my last breaths.

Patricia (01:27:42.188)
Am I really worried about this post? Am I really worried about why the likes or how many likes or this or that? So at that moment, I always come to understand that if I’m dying at that very moment, I just really hope I achieve the grace of God and that I can be in a peaceful place. That would be my only worry, really, because what else can worry me at that moment?

maybe for other people is different, but it works for me to do that. And when I’m too distracted or too worried with other things of this world, then I come back to this practice and I really envision myself passing away and connecting to that worry, which is I want God to be pleased with

Josh Galt (01:28:33.764)
That’s really interesting. So you mentioned meditation as well. Obviously awareness is really important and that’s something that think introspection in general is often lost in our modern society and just living our lives. So awareness, meditation, that’s not something that I was really familiar with as being a part of Islam therapy. And then I imagine prayer as well.

Patricia (01:28:48.664)
Mm-hmm.

Josh Galt (01:29:02.788)
So in all of those things, are you sort of combining from a foundation of, want to use this to be a better person, but also to deepen my connection with God?

Patricia (01:29:13.824)
Absolutely yes, yeah that’s correct. in Islam we say that everything is allowed unless it’s clearly stated it’s not allowed. So Islam always encourages a holistic approach to getting close to God because Quran says you know God put signs everywhere like basically in the horizons within yourself.

outside like there’s always signs for us to get curious and understand so it can help our path and and yeah, mean meditation itself Quran says that you can meditate, know, we all have maybe an idea of meditation which is like maybe getting into trance or guided meditation something like that. That’s perfectly okay as well. I would do those too or I would do

meditation on the 99 names of Allah, of God, which is like the attributes of God, like for example, the most merciful. And then you start thinking in all the mercy around you or all the mercy you have experienced. Maybe the other name, Ar-Raouf, which is one of my favorites, which is like the most kind, like the most tenderness you can possibly imagine.

So then I picture those moments where maybe I was in a really bad anxiety and something happened. Some stranger talked to me that made me feel good or just something that enveloped me in this like tenderness. So you start meditating different ways. There’s different ways, but I would combine guided meditations could be through YouTube or whatever else like energy healing, which it helped me a lot to

understand because God clearly also tells us that you know the intention Islam emphasizes a lot on intention and intention is energy so your intent is what’s going to get things moving or stock or whatever the case might be so based on your intent is how you get there the you reap what you sow based on the intent you know and

Patricia (01:31:36.554)
All of that, of course, I’ve learned it from someone, but it has been a holistic approach based on what’s allowed.

Josh Galt (01:31:43.108)
That’s really cool. I love the intentionality part because that’s so important with everything, but it really gets to the heart of why are you praying? Why are you going to the mosque or the iglesia or whatever? Why are you doing these things, saying these things? And then with that intentionality to focus on the names of God. That’s really, really cool because then it…

Patricia (01:31:52.12)
Mm-hmm.

Patricia (01:31:56.312)
Yeah.

Patricia (01:32:08.206)
Mm-hmm.

Josh Galt (01:32:12.132)
It just brings a very clear focus. that’s not something I’m going to have to ask some people from other faiths about that specific. I’m going to add that to my questions. It’s really interesting. Because yeah, there are, and in Islam, there are so many names for God, right? And that’s one of the things that in Sufi, there’s like the, I don’t remember what it’s called.

Patricia (01:32:26.765)
Yeah.

Patricia (01:32:31.852)
Yeah.

Josh Galt (01:32:38.434)
the of it. You probably know what it is, but where they’re moving their heads and saying the name of God and it becomes like a trance sort of thing in a group.

Patricia (01:32:45.646)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. To be honest, I forgot. yeah. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah, see, all of those, which two minutes I’ve only attended, I think, three in all this time. Again, these are not mandatory, but this help, this help, especially when you live in a community. Yeah, with intentionality with the community, when they do it.

Josh Galt (01:32:47.736)
Not Sama, but Sama’s like with the music and the dance, I think.

Josh Galt (01:33:07.566)
with intentionality.

Patricia (01:33:12.59)
When I used to live in San Diego, there was a Sufi community in LA. So I would try to go because in San Diego, we didn’t really have it. So I would try to go to LA at least once a month. And it’s with that intention. It’s OK, why am I going? Why am I going to drive through that traffic two hours or three hours? Why? and you believe or not, many people will have different intentions. So that’s why you need to the more clear you get with your intentions. Sometimes I want to do something.

Josh Galt (01:33:29.27)
Yeah.

Patricia (01:33:42.752)
and my first thought is like, yeah, I wanna do it because it’s good or because I wanna feel close to God. But then something doesn’t feel completely clear in me. So I start asking more to myself, like, is that really all the case? And then some other motive comes, no, like I wanna be seen or I want to be this. I mean, which is not always bad, but you need to really, the more you ask, the more clear your intention is, the better the results you get.

the more powerful your experience will be when it’s more connected to God.

Josh Galt (01:34:20.164)
Definitely. I want to ask you one more question. And this is for people who are Muslim, people who believe sort of have the same framework as you, and also for people of other faiths. What would you say is the most important thing? So if someone is really interested in becoming more intentional with their faith and getting close to God.

Not so much about the religious aspect, but they want to know God on a deeper level What is something you would say for the next 30 days if they will take this approach do this thing? Apply this think this way whatever it is for you. What do you what would you say is like something that? Start here in order to get closer to God over and this is a great time because I’m not sure when I’ll get this published but You know, it’s gonna be the first week of the year for sure in January. So

Patricia (01:35:15.394)
Yeah.

Josh Galt (01:35:16.888)
What’s something that people can do to get deeper into knowing themselves and connecting with God on a daily basis?

Patricia (01:35:27.724)
You know, I will tell you something that of course really works for me and I believe and I would hope it would, it could work for many people. Always with a caveat that every person’s journey is very individual and we all need to find our own way of doing things. something that I didn’t know other people don’t really do and I found out like not long ago is that

conversation with God. For some reason, I believe that most people have that conversation with God, like a give and take, maybe if I’m washing dishes or cleaning or something like, God, like why am I feeling sad or why this or why that or, you know, thank you for this or thank you. Like I talk to God very often in this conversation way.

And I asked a couple of friends, do you talk to God? And they’re like, no, not really. So it made me think that maybe it’s not so common or maybe people don’t do it. So in case people don’t really do it, I would like to say that that’s something that has helped me a lot because you keep that awareness and I do get answers. We get answers when we ask.

whether that is God, the universe, whatever people believe in. God is ever-present, right? it’s… the Quran truly emphasizes on asking because He listens. So there was a time of period of my life where I would think, why do I even have to ask God if He knows everything I’m thinking, He knows everything I need, He knows everything, why do I have to even say it? You know, so…

I went through period of my life where I wouldn’t really ask. I would just do my prayers and not even really have that conversation. But I noticed I started to feel a bit empty. And it was not until I reinstate that conversation, like as if, yeah, you’re listening. It’s like a conviction that you are listening because that’s what you’re saying. You say in the Quran you’re listening. I understand you know.

Patricia (01:37:52.748)
my thoughts and my needs and everything, but I still want to talk to you. And I think that mechanism, even if a person is not used to it, maybe start with, I don’t know, three minutes, two minutes, whatever it is, it’s like any habit, right? So it’s a build up. So for me now, it’s like a very common thing to do. But if someone wants to get closer to God and to get answers, I think that would be a great way.

Josh Galt (01:38:08.302)
Yeah.

Josh Galt (01:38:23.288)
And how do you know that when you’re receiving messages, my mom always talks about, she used to say that God sent me a fax, or now it’s I’m getting a download from God. How do you know when you’re hearing God versus your own mind answering? It’s like God, I really want a Lamborghini. Okay, Joshua, I’m going to give you a Lamborghini. Like, okay, obviously that’s me just making that up. How do you know when it’s the voice of God really speaking to you? Is it something you feel in your heart or is it?

Patricia (01:38:31.63)
the

Patricia (01:38:51.862)
Yeah, now it’s more clear. But again, it was not always like this because it becomes more clear the more you heal your own wounds or trauma or things like that. So now it is more clear where I can more easily distinguish it. Sometimes it’s more like a thought, but you know that’s not the type of thoughts you have. So it’s like a thought that’s just implanted there. Other times,

It could just come through a person, a book, literally anyone, a colleague, my manager. It could be anyone that maybe had a question today and I asked God like, I don’t understand this. Can you help me understand it? And then next day or today, so a week from now, someone is telling me that and it resonates deeply.

So that’s how know comes. That answer is from God because it really resonates deeply. So it could be a book again, it could be different ways. A dream perhaps. In the past I was not good with dreams, meaning good as in like I would just dismiss them because I had no clue. But now slowly, slowly I noticed, okay, I have a question and then this dream came.

Okay, let me try to ponder a little bit. And then if I connect to some message that I find relevant to my question, then yeah, then I understand it’s like.

Josh Galt (01:40:29.092)
So in asking those questions there may not be an immediate answer but there are synchronicities in life or there are answers that come that you know. That’s not a coincidence because I just asked God that question yesterday and now look like this person is basically answering in their own human way but I know that that’s coming from God.

Patricia (01:40:45.399)
Yeah.

Patricia (01:40:49.88)
Absolutely, Josh. And are even getting triggered. In Sufism, the big part is your triggers are messengers. yeah, anything that triggers us could be something a person said and you feel upset or you feel less than or you feel insulted, whatever it is. Any trigger contains information as to what happened there that this is triggering me.

And it’s worth analyzing, maybe not too deeply for some people, but I have gotten a lot of answers through my triggers as well. So I think that’s also a way.

Josh Galt (01:41:28.942)
that goes back to the awareness, right? Of being aware of your thoughts and your feelings and being intentional with that relationship. That’s really insightful. Really, really, really good stuff. I appreciate it. No, thank you so much for taking the time and having this conversation. was really, really interesting. And it inspires me to want to look deeper as I have been, but it inspires me to want to look even deeper into…

Patricia (01:41:39.502)
Yes. Thank you, Nesh.

Josh Galt (01:41:58.614)
into Sufism and Islam in general, because there’s a lot that I’ve learned that I didn’t realize, you I had my own preconceived notions as well of what this is, a political, religious, ideology, et cetera. And that’s part of the benefit of having these types of conversations too, is like, there’s so much that we can all learn and realize we’re all seeking God. We don’t have to just create these artificial divisions and barriers and whatnot.

Patricia (01:42:11.47)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Josh Galt (01:42:27.904)
And as we are genuine, as you are genuine in your faith, you inspire me to be genuine in my faith and other people in theirs. And that’s the, that’s what I think we should all be doing, even if we are doing that in a different structure. So thanks for being willing to have the conversation.

Patricia (01:42:41.056)
Absolutely. Thank you, Josh, for this space. I really love these conversations are extremely important and I hope we can have them more often in our societies to help us. Yeah. Thanks.

Josh Galt (01:42:54.434)
Absolutely.